New Realities recorded on April 27, 2010
Summary
In this episode of New Realities, host Alan Steinfeld interviews UFO researcher Richard Dolan about the profound societal, economic, and political implications of extraterrestrial disclosure. They discuss the inevitability of the secrecy ending, the existence of a technologically advanced ‘breakaway civilization,’ and how the introduction of free energy could disrupt global power structures. The conversation also explores the role of artificial intelligence, the diverse agendas of different ET groups, and the necessity for human spiritual evolution to navigate this cosmic transition.
Transcript
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome to New Realities. This is Alan Steinfeld, and that is Duke Williams and the Extremes singing a song called The Night Before the Future, which was about his UFO experience. And we’ll be continuing with that understanding, those ideas tonight with my very special guest, Richard Dolan. He is, I feel, one of the top researchers in the field of ufology, and his latest book is called UFOs and the National Security State from 1941 to 1991. Is that right, Richard?
Richard Dolan
That’s right, Alan. That’s right.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I was very excited to hear your lecture last week and I think instead of going through all that history because it’s all in the book and documented, I liked the more philosophical angle you were taking about the revolutionary thought and thinking and sociological preparation that needs to take place if disclosure and contact or whatever we want to call this interface is going to happen. What’s your position about the sociology involved in ET contact?
Richard Dolan
Well, it’s been something that I’ve been thinking more and more about over the last couple of years. It’s really, I don’t want to say monopolizing my thinking, but it’s definitely this whole question of what will happen or how will an end to the secrecy occur? And if that happens, then what will happen as a result of that? These are things that really have been very much on my mind. I will say that I’ve been looking at an end to the secrecy as something that’s a paradox. I put it this way, I think the other night when I was speaking in New York, it’s a paradox in the sense that I think it’s impossible, but it’s inevitable. Impossible in the sense that I just, I can’t see any motivation by those people who have this secret, those people at the top of our power structure, for example, in wanting to share this information. And yet, it’s inevitable that the secret’s going to break because this isn’t ordinary times that we’re living in. It’s not 1960. It’s 2010. And we are moving fast like a train going 150 miles per hour down the track, and there’s just nothing that’s going to stop us at this point. In the last 10 years, we’ve developed means in our society that we didn’t even think about. YouTube is everywhere now. People who have video in their cell phones is almost becoming ubiquitous now. And so all of these things, and these are just a couple of new developments in the last few years, we have to assume time is not going to stand still. And so I am certain at this point in the game that this secret’s going to break and the way it’s going to happen is some event, I don’t know what it will be, but something is going to occur that is going to be released in such a way that it will be undeniable. Maybe it’ll be a news story in which by accident they capture a UFO in the background on video.
Alan Steinfeld
Well that’s already happened actually, you know, that, I think it was the inauguration, there was that thing flying past, you know, in Washington.
Richard Dolan
Well yeah, but not what I’m thinking. I mean, that happened, but it didn’t cause the entire inauguration, everyone to draw their breath and go, “Oh my God, what is that?” So, and to this day that event, which that may be something that’s truly anomalous, but there’s been debate over it ever since. And I am convinced that it’s going to happen. I just don’t know when or how, but it will happen that there’s going to be something that breaks it. And when it does, you’re going to see the politicians scrambling to try to control the spin. And that’s when it gets really interesting because, right, like I was saying the other night, I absolutely don’t feel that culturally we’re ready and as a civilization that we’re ready. But to think of it another way, what couple is ready to have their first child? Yet they have them all the time and you learn to adjust and you learn to fly as you have to. And I have a feeling that’s the way it’s going to be for us. For example, okay, you’ve got the political fallout. So any political leader, whether it’s the president or some other major individual, they’re going to have to explain, and this is a minor issue compared to everything else, but they’re going to have to explain how they kept this secret for seven decades running. How they managed the media, how they managed the political system, how they controlled the academic system. These are not going to be easy questions. There’s going to be a lot of angry people, by the way. Surely there will be people who will be very forgiving and say, “Well, the government had to do what they had to do.” But you know what, not everyone’s going to be all that forgiving. So there’s going to be a lot of public anger about this. Then it’s going to get even much more intense than that because it’s going to come out that there’s this whole structure of secrecy. In other words, what have they been doing with this secret all these years? Well, I’ve been arguing that one of the things that they’ve been doing is trying to build their own flying saucers, trying to develop acquired exotic technologies. And so I think what we’re going to learn is that there’s been this massive off-the-grid system that has developed over many generations to exploit this technology. I have been calling it a breakaway civilization. What I’ve been arguing particularly in my last book is that if you take the long view of human history, go back 500 or 1,000 years or more, you will find that there were many co-existing civilizations at the same time. Europe and China and Africa and Australia and the Near East and the Western Hemisphere. And they all did their thing. They all had different ideas of what the universe was. They had different levels of science that they were using. They were different civilizations. And what we’ve seen over the last 500 years really is the inexorable merging and melding together of those various civilizations to create a global society. But even in our own lifetimes, we have the example of the Cold War in which Western and Soviet science may not have been completely separate civilizations, but they were separate infrastructures very much so. They kept secrets from each other and so on. So it’s not like this foreign idea that you could have right now a kind of separate human civilization. What I have suggested is that if we were a secret clandestine group with exotic alien technology to study and trillions or many billions of dollars to play with to use to study this and total secrecy and lots of genius level scientists looking at it. Hey, we would have a number of really great insights that we would have developed. Some of them would be for commercial application, we’d make some money, but maybe some of them might just be so important that we wouldn’t share it with the rest of the world. We would be developing a kind of clandestine science. And the way that science works is one innovation builds on another and builds on the next and the next. And so what I’ve envisioned and what I really believe has happened is that the Majestic group, let’s call them that, has developed its own separate civilization. They have a completely different scientific type of understanding about things, different technologies, a different cosmology, in the sense they’re living in a world in which an ET reality is probably a given. And so I think with fairness we can call that a separate civilization, a breakaway civilization, they broken away from our own. And any kind of true disclosure, this type of thing will inevitably come out. It will be learned by the rest of us that a certain group of humanity has kind of run off on their own. And it’s not just technology. You have to really wonder what these people have access to in terms of like biotech, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence. Do they have the secret to living 300 years in a secure underground facility that’s got all the energy they need forever and ever? Hey, I don’t really know, but I have to wonder. I have to suspect that there are some very possibly some very far out parameters there. But even that is only scratching the surface of what a disclosure scenario is going to lead to because inevitably, even before we get to the nature of these other beings, let me get to that in a minute. Then let’s get to something as simple as energy. Right, energy is almost the core, one of the central issues about all of this. Because look, whatever these objects are using when they traverse the skies of this planet, it’s clearly not high octane gasoline. They’re using something a little more nifty than that, whether it’s zero-point energy field or whether it is maybe some form of nuclear fusion or something even better. They’re using something that’s absolutely quiet, that can allow them instant acceleration to zigzag and to do all these amazing things. So let’s say that as a result of a disclosure of the UFO reality, scientists start to inquire, they’ll say, okay, this is true, so what are these things flying with? So that secret’s going to come out and we’re going to have let’s call it free energy. Is that going to be the utopia that some people like Steven Greer has argued that, you know, we’ll be able to desalinate the oceans and make the deserts bloom, which he has said many times. Well, I think that that’s certainly possible. I think that we would be able to do that. On the other hand, there are other things that are going to happen first. Do you have free energy, right? Let’s refer to it as a cheap portable energy source, presumably it would be something that would allow everyone to use to heat their homes forever for free. It could also conceivably be something that would make an incredibly powerful bomb or explosive device that might blow up half the Pacific Ocean. Because this is clearly a device that would have intense amounts of energy. And so we would really have to be concerned, I would be concerned about this just being completely out there for all people to have access to.
Alan Steinfeld
But it could be the end of war. If everyone had energy, of course the multinationals wouldn’t be happy, but perhaps there wouldn’t be that much to really fight over anymore.
Richard Dolan
Well, it is an argument and I take the point, Alan. I wonder about this. But I also really wonder what would a world be like in which you give every human being on this planet, okay, 6.6 billion people, essentially free energy to do whatever they wanted. We’re going to be doing a lot more than driving cars without polluting. With free portable energy, you would have the capability, no problem, for example, to get machinery to dig deep down. The only thing that’s preventing us from having an underground civilization now is energy. Simple fact. Underground is desirable in many ways. Share, you know, there’s sunshine you’re not getting, but we would just I guess what I’m suggesting is that one of the biggest problems to the global ecosystem crisis that we’re dealing with is not just pollution. It’s the fact that human beings in general are running amok over the planet like little termites. And having free energy is not necessarily going to help that situation. It will help certain things. It would probably help us with different types of environmental remediation. So in other words, what it’s going to do is raise the stakes. It’s going to allow us to be either much more beneficent or much more destructive to the environment. And all that means is it’s going to require probably a new way of looking at our politics.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. In a way, your argument in some ways reminds me of what may have happened when the masses learned to read, for instance. I mean, I know it’s a little abstract that analogy, but like, do we let people have access to knowledge? That way they’ll… I mean, it’s vaguely familiar in that term. Does that make sense to you?
Richard Dolan
I understand and I’m a believer in having the truth out, but what I’m saying is that this is not going to be a free ride. And the other problem is that until we make whatever transition we’re going to make, there’re going to be financial repercussions. And you know, if you look at the long term of human history, this may be not a big deal, it may be a little blip. But we’ll have to live through the fact that the global financial system, as it is right now, 90% of it is connected to petroleum and energy. 90% of the cost of anything you can probably pick up off your desk, the cost of that is 90% is the energy that went into making it or transporting it. And so with petroleum essentially out of the picture, it’ll cause a lot of these prices ultimately to drop, which is I think a great thing. But what it will also do is throw the entire global financial picture into chaos. Now many of us may sit back and think, well great, why not, I have no problem with that.
Alan Steinfeld
And it’s already in chaos, so there you go.
Richard Dolan
Well this is true, it is in chaos, but I think that what we’ve experienced would be a very small dress rehearsal to what it could be if you yanked literally the pillar of global wealth out from underneath. So there’re going to be financial repercussions.
Alan Steinfeld
I agree. It would be a huge upheaval on the economic, financial markets, everything would, for free energy. I mean, if we take it step by step, first there’s the disclosure, hey guess what, they’re here. And then I think the whole energy thing would probably take a few more years to unfold. I don’t think that would happen right away after disclosure. But the question I do have for you is going back to the whole idea, you know, it’s obvious that they’ve been here for a long time, maybe 60 years, maybe 100 years. Do they really need to come and tell people they’re here? I mean, maybe the UFOs, ETs, whoever they are, are happy staying on the fringes of our reality, doing whatever they’re doing, and no need to be public on their part.
Richard Dolan
I totally agree with that. I think that’s, and I think they’ve been here a lot longer than 100 years. But yes, I think that’s right. But the variable in this equation isn’t them, I don’t think. I think it’s us. We have changed so dramatically in the last century. You know, 100 years ago we were in no position to really, to detect them or to deal with them in any way. But we are now. We are really 20 or 30 years away from serious quantum computing, which just blows my mind when I think about this. Advances in artificial intelligence are such that probably within 15 years we’ll have computers that will be talking to us, maybe persuading us that they’re conscious.
Alan Steinfeld
What is quantum computing?
Richard Dolan
Quantum computing is based on the concepts in quantum physics, dealing with multiple universes. As crazy as it sounds. A quantum computer, let me just describe it this way first, would be to current computing what current computing might be to the Gutenberg printing press. In other words, what we’re talking about, I’m serious, orders, many orders of magnitude beyond what our computing can even do right now. And that’s…
Alan Steinfeld
My computer can do everything! What else is there?
Richard Dolan
Well you may not feel that way in another 20, 25 years when you look back. I remember my first computer, which I bought in 1988. I’ll never forget it, it was an IBM PS2 Model 30. Had a clock speed of 8 MHz. 8 MHz! I’m running, I don’t know what I’ve got, I got 3 GHz now, whatever the heck it is. So 3,000 MHz. So I went from 8 MHz, I’m now at 3,000. Plus then you got changes in RAM and everything. I mean it’s, you know, not even, not even remotely like what I’ve got now. So no, your computer seems like it can do everything, but quantum computing is going to rewrite the rules totally.
Alan Steinfeld
Alright, so where…
Richard Dolan
So anyway, all I’m saying is we’re the factor that’s changing. We’re about to leap into their world. That’s what it is.
Alan Steinfeld
You think so? You think we’re… they seem so far ahead of us at least technologically that…
Richard Dolan
Without technology, you see we’re hitting what AI theorists, artificial intelligence theorists, call the singularity. Now the singularity is a concept in black hole physics. For a black hole, the singularity is the center of a black hole, it’s the point at which all laws of physics don’t make any sense anymore. Okay. And the singularity in artificial intelligence theory is the point at which computing intelligence surpasses human intelligence.
Alan Steinfeld
But human intelligence has the ability to be creative in the sense that they can draw a thought from nowhere. Like a new idea seems to come from not something that’s been programmed, but from an unknown. I don’t think computers can have that.
Richard Dolan
Well, they don’t have that now.
Alan Steinfeld
But they could.
Richard Dolan
Well, I would just say if people think UFOs are wack, they should read some very good mainstream books on AI and find out what these people who, unlike me, they get serious grant money to do what they do. And all I can say is these people who have invented the computer science discipline are almost all in agreement that the singularity is coming and it’s going to completely change everything. Now, some of the more optimistic of these people, I’m thinking of Ray Kurzweil, for example, he’s a real visionary in this, is arguing not that computers are going to take over the world a la the Terminator or the Matrix, but rather what he sees is a kind of merging of machine and human intelligence. So that in other words, a hundred years from now, there’ll be probably almost no old-fashioned, unenhanced Homo sapiens, but instead we’ll all have various implants and enhancements in ourselves that would be genetic as well as technological with nanotech. See, you’d have little nanobots going through your system, healing you as you live and keeping you young, keeping your brain not just in top form, but in better than top form and so forth.
Alan Steinfeld
How does that connect us to the extraterrestrials then?
Richard Dolan
Well, here’s why. Because in other words, what it looks like is that we are reinventing ourselves not just as a society, not just as a civilization, but as a species. And so within another century, there’s a strong likelihood that we’re going to be in what some people have called a post-human world. We’re going to be as different from how we are today as we are to the Neanderthal species of us. So we’re going to be at a different order of intelligence operating technology that is orders of magnitude beyond what we have now. And with that being the case, we might very well be able to deal with whoever these other beings are. Because it might just be that progress doesn’t just move at a standard linear level. It might move by jumps and leaps. And we are about to make a major leap into this next level. And if that’s the case, they’re obviously aware of that, and they’re probably watching us very carefully.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you think, well, in that case, it comes down to a couple of ideas about who these ETs are. Are they a great galactic family waiting for us to grow up and be welcomed into this brotherhood? Not in an airy-fairy way, but in a practical way. Or are they so far on the edge that they don’t really care what we’re doing? They’re so far beyond it. It’s as if like ants climbing a tree. Oh look, they got to a new branch, but so I’m just saying…
Richard Dolan
It could be a third possibility. A third possibility is that they just live here. They might just be living here. This idea of a galactic federation, I’ve never found it all that persuasive personally. I’ve never seen any bit of anything I would call evidence to support it. There are people who claim that they have contact with such entities and that’s about as far as we have. So there may be something like that or there may not be. But when I look at these other creatures, when I look at reports of these other creatures, A, they’re all tetrapods. They’ve all got two arms, two legs, and a head. They’ve all got the same basic body plan as we do, or they have the same basic body plan as other Earth forms, like the so-called mantises or insectoids, or the reptoids. In other words, their basic genetic structure appears to be at least somewhat similar to what we have on Earth.
Alan Steinfeld
Or related. I mean, you’re implying related, perhaps, somehow.
Richard Dolan
Yeah, I am. And it would seem to me, I mean, one of the theories that I’ve often kicked around, this is just my own little private theory, is that if what I’m thinking about AI is true, and so let’s say we hit the singularity in another generation or so, because like right now, you and I don’t have the capability to make it to the nearest star system. We’re not going to make it to Alpha Centauri, which is only four light years away. But we may very well have an artificially intelligent creature or an artificially intelligent ship that can make that journey in another fifty years. And if that happens, so let’s say our super artificially intelligent advanced descendants make it to some inhabited world. And now let’s say they take the next step and they want to interact with that world in some way. How would they do it? Well, if they’ve got strong capabilities with genetics, they might just take native life forms of that world and create a life form that is designed to survive and to inhabit on that planet. And that those life forms would then be their tools for interacting with that planet for whatever agenda they might have. I don’t really know that that’s the case with this, but I have to say that I wonder if that would be the case with what’s going on here.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, there’s one more aspect to this whole thing that you really haven’t touched on yet, and it’s sort of where I’m maybe coming from, this idea of consciousness. What is a sort of a spiritual perspective? Are we sentient beings in a way connected to all time and all space through our sentience or through our consciousness? And are these other beings then related in sentience to us or in awareness? And does, is consciousness, as Amit Goswami said, the ground of all being? And we have to look at it, I think, from also that perspective.
Richard Dolan
Well, I agree, and I happen to agree with you that the consciousness that we as humans have goes beyond, it is eternal in the sense that it’s beyond time. So I think that that’s an important part of what we are. It’s not clear to me that these other entities have that level of consciousness. At least not all of them. There certainly are many reports of, let’s call them the Nordics, or sometimes they’re even called the watchers or the blondes. These entities I think may very well be, they certainly are portrayed, they allow themselves to look like us. Maybe they do look like us. They may be such entities, they seem angelic almost at times. But you’ve got other entities that absolutely don’t impress me as having that level of consciousness. The ubiquitous greys, I don’t think strike me that way, nor do some of the reptoid types of creatures.
Alan Steinfeld
But they really do understand consciousness in a different way. Because well, I think from my first-hand accounts and also talking to other abductees and contactees, what is so involved in that experience is an altered state of awareness or consciousness. When you meet these beings, you are no longer in the reality that you’ve been living in. Something switches and they can manipulate that, and that’s why they kind of alter our state of awareness and consciousness by being in… So there’s a mechanism of consciousness that’s very much at play here. I think Whitley Strieber comes the closest to writing about that and understanding it. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Richard Dolan
I do. And I think that these entities are very likely able to use technologies to do that. I think it’s not just consciousness, it’s consciousness plus technology. So if you have technology that can enhance certain capabilities, and I’m convinced this is what Majestic is doing at a clandestine level. I’m convinced that they are scrambling right now to try to deal with proliferation of other entities that are here, not all of which I think are benign, to be perfectly candid with you. I think what we’re dealing with is a kind of silent or quiet Cold War that’s happening right now.
Alan Steinfeld
You mean the government fighting these ETs? Is that what you’re saying, the government is…
Richard Dolan
Well, I think they’re trying to deal with it. And I don’t know if that means that they’re fighting them or not. But I think that yeah, I mean, this is actually I will go this far and just say that I’ve encountered a number of individuals that I’m looking into whether or not they’re valid in what they’ve said to me, and these are individuals who are knowledgeable about this topic. And I’ve been looking into this for some time. I’m working with a hypothesis now that that is in fact what is going on. That there’s a kind of, what we would call the Majestic Organization is an enormous group. It’s like the NSA or the CIA, except it’s totally deep black. It’s clandestine. Remember, of course, America has its own history of having major organizations existing in secrecy. The NSA existed secretly for many years, as did the NRO and so on.
Alan Steinfeld
So what is Majestic, you feel, happening with ETs right now? What’s going on?
Richard Dolan
Well, I think that one of the things that’s very important is they’re working, these ETs have ways of manipulating space and time. Space and time that ordinary humans just can’t do. But I think that Majestic is probably trying to do, and they’re trying to do it by using their own people with very advanced psychic skill, and I think they’re using them and they’re enhancing them in whatever way they can technologically. And they’re doing that because they’re interested in time. They’re interested in time.
Alan Steinfeld
Time travel, you’re saying.
Richard Dolan
I don’t know if it’s time travel. I’m not sure. Seeing times. Seeing different times. Remote viewing the future and this type of thing.
Alan Steinfeld
Huh. But what do the ETs want in this situation? I mean, let’s say, if you can guess or hypothesize.
Richard Dolan
I’m not really sure, if I were to hypothesize… I think some of them are predatory, and I think that some of them are not.
Alan Steinfeld
You mean they… Like the greys, they want our genetics? Or is that what you’re referring to?
Richard Dolan
Well, if there’s a spiritual component to this, okay, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a benign or good spiritual component. It could be. So there’s I think a wild spiritual universe out there. And I guess let me put it this way, I’ve never been 100% comfortable with individuals in the field who have promoted only the positive side of ET contact. I think that there’s a positive side and I think that there’s a side that we need to be very careful about. So I think that there are entities out there that I, let me just say I would never want to leave my children alone in a room with them because I feel that they’re probably not very healthy for us.
Alan Steinfeld
Except you get the other extreme, I just went to a lecture with David Jacobs and he talked about the hybrids, aliens being here and he feels that they’re going to take over at some point. Meanwhile, he’s talking about how dysfunctional they are as social creatures, as social beings, and it seems like there could never be a functional society made out of these hybrids. So I don’t know, but he gets really paranoid. And then Budd Hopkins was there saying also, well, perhaps they’re here to learn about our feelings and our emotions. And I agree with that. And yet Budd seemed more to side with the David Jacobs side, like, be careful, they’re out here, we don’t know what they’re going to do and they’re more powerful than us. And I don’t buy that either. So I don’t…
Richard Dolan
Why? What don’t you buy exactly about that?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, that they are going to take over our world, that they’re going to be seeping into our society and eventually controlling us. If anything, I think they’re here to learn about human behavior and will go off and create their own paradise after learning about feeling. Because I do think the greys are here taking genetic information because they need our genetic emotional DNA, because I think emotions are held in the DNA. And they’re creating offspring that have their genius, have their intellectual capability with our capacity to feel. And that civilization will save their species from extinction and they will create a new world and happily ever after. I don’t know. But I do think they’re here for our genetics because they need it and not to take over.
Richard Dolan
Well, maybe. You know, any of these things are possible.
Alan Steinfeld
But I don’t think they’re, I mean of course yeah, there’s some not so nice beings out there. But according to Budd and David Jacobs. They’re all seen together. The greys, the Nordics, the reptilians are usually seen within the same environment. As if they’re all somehow working together. So you get these very peaceful…
Richard Dolan
Well, not only do I think they’re not working together, but I also think that there’s a lot of clandestine human groups that are not working together. So I don’t think that we’re talking about a simple, like, here’s the human group and here’s the ET group. I really believe that we have multiple clandestine human groups that are very compartmented and don’t share or play nice with each other. And you’ve also got multiple ET groups and I suspect, in fact I believe, that there are probably multiple types of alliances going on between human and non-human groups. And I hesitate to call them ET by the way. I’m still not totally convinced that we’re talking about beings from another planet that are here. If they are, they could have been from another planet eons ago and they’ve been living here for a long while.
Alan Steinfeld
What about all the spaceships? What are all those UFOs about then, if they’re not from…
Richard Dolan
That’s their infrastructure. They’re flying all over the place. They have bases under the Earth, deep underground. They got bases probably on the far side of the moon. So yeah, but they’re based here. Look, underground tunneling technology is already advanced with our civilization. I just published a book by my very good friend Richard Sauder called Hidden in Plain Sight, and he lays it out, clear as day in my opinion, that the capabilities to make for us to make massive clandestine bases under the sea floor is incredibly advanced. I mean, under the floor of the Pacific Ocean. And you think it’s impossible, but it isn’t. It’s totally doable, feasible. You get the oxygen, power, none of that’s a problem.
Alan Steinfeld
Mars, they think they’re on Mars. And I do believe that there are beings on Mars that are living under the surface there.
Richard Dolan
Yeah, under the surface is so easy to do on almost any world. All you need is a way to get something to breathe. If it’s oxygen, you get oxygen. Under the oceans is the easiest thing in the world, because you just split the oxygen out of the water. And you need a little bit of energy. You could put a five megawatt nuclear reactor under the ocean floor and you’re good. You’re good to go.
Alan Steinfeld
But I mean, going back to what you’re saying, I know that’s an amazing, we could do a whole show on that. But going back to what you were saying about these different clandestine groups. How does a government coming forward, let’s say they do, talk to people about these different factions? I mean, maybe they wouldn’t, but if the UFO researchers who have been investigating these things for years are not in agreement, how does a government coming forward present a clear-cut case to the public that makes them reassured everything’s okay?
Richard Dolan
Well, this is I think a great question and I think it’s a real problem, because I don’t see an easy way that a government can do it. First of all, we have to ask, are the governments even in control? And I think it’s very likely that the President of the United States doesn’t even have full control over the policy on this issue. I don’t think that he does. I met with a man just a little over a year or two ago, and he told me about an interview. This is a retired senior officer and a PhD out of the national security community, and this individual interviewed a man who was on his deathbed who was in a secure facility and had handled the Roswell wreckage in 1947. This guy interviewing him became convinced that the dying man was legitimate. He had a lot of secrets and he asked him, look, it’s a shame that people like yourself are unable to talk because of your secrecy oaths that you can’t. He said, wouldn’t it be great if an executive order from the president were to liberate you from your oath? And this dying man said to him, it would take a hell of a lot more than a presidential executive order to liberate me from my oath. So the implication being that the president does not have even the authority to free these people from their oaths.
Alan Steinfeld
But let’s say who does? I mean, you’ve studied law and politics, who has that authority?
Richard Dolan
Who has the authority? I think what’s happened is that we’ve been seeing, we’ve been living through almost without realizing it, a kind of revolution. I’ve been calling it a transnational revolution. It’s still continuing to this day, but it really got going in the 1990s. If you compare the world of the mid-80s to the world of the mid-90s, that’s ten years in which everything changed. You go from a Cold War to no Cold War, you go into a global world, a world with internet, a world where everyone’s got computers. A world with NAFTA, a world with new GATT and changes in the WTO and World Bank. So that the whole process of globalization has been greatly facilitated of course. It’s a totally different world. And so, on top of that, it sure to me looks like we’ve developed extra-national entities that are not bound by sovereign national laws. Think of the famous NSA-led program called Echelon. A lot of people listening to the show have probably heard of Echelon. It’s a global electronic eavesdropping program, and it’s run by many nations. It’s the NSA of the United States plus the NSA equivalents of Britain, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and probably at this point a number of other nations. The point of Echelon is, to this day, the United States will not admit that it even exists, but everyone knows it does. And Australia has admitted it. But one of the things about Echelon is that it appears to be beyond US law, it appears to be beyond UK law. In other words, it’s not clear what laws that program responds to, but they seem to have an independent legal structure. And so, what I’m looking at here in terms of the UFO cover-up is that the organization that we’re loosely calling Majestic, I think is very much along the same lines. I think it’s gone international. It’s basically dominated by private money, more than even by public power. And it is, I think it is independent. Who controls the most powerful families on Earth? Who controls the Rockefellers? Who controls the Rothschilds? The answer is no one. No one controls them. And so, who controls Majestic? I don’t think anybody controls Majestic except they do. They have a huge amount of money, I’m sure. They have total latitude of action. And so, what’s going to have to happen, and what I’ve been saying now for the last year, is that what a US president must do, this is like the midnight hour here. This is do or die. The country is slipping away from public control, and a US president must, he must take back full constitutional authority of the Office of the President in the name of the people of the United States. And what that means is that it is absolutely critical that a president gain control over these myriad runaway black budget programs. And that includes of course the UFO program, which is, even though the UFO secret is, as I’ve sometimes argued, has gone private and has gone international, it’s still a secret in which the US national security structure is critically important because that’s the base out of which all this stuff operates. And so the president has got to gain control of that somehow. This is not an enviable job.
Alan Steinfeld
But how would a president, I mean if a president like, I mean I saw an interview with Clinton saying he was looking for these UFO files but he didn’t find any. He said, well maybe some people are lying to him. But how does a president go about looking for something that’s so institutionalized, so deep, so black, that it’s hidden from his view?
Richard Dolan
Right, well this is the issue. You’re fighting an uphill battle. But the question is, do you fight it or do you not fight it? I think that Clinton famously asked his friend and assistant to the Attorney General, Webster Hubbell, he said, ‘I want you to find out two things for me. One, who killed JFK, and two, are there UFOs?’ or I forget what order they were in. Hubbell did try to look into it, but reading his biography you really get the idea that it was kind of a half-assed effort. He didn’t really put a lot of energy into it, and then he was out of office anyway, so he didn’t have much time to do it. But yeah, it’s clear that Bill Clinton was interested in the topic. It’s clear that a lot of US presidents actually have been interested in UFOs. Ronald Reagan saw one for goodness sake, and people kind of forget that. Jimmy Carter famously had a lot of connection with this. But the thing is, how to take control.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, no, just that famous scene in Independence Day where they say, ‘You know, how are we going to stop these things?’ and then they finally reveal the Area 51.
Richard Dolan
Right, exactly. The President says, ‘What? You said this didn’t exist!’ and the guy says, ‘That’s not exactly true.’
Alan Steinfeld
That might be how it happens or something.
Richard Dolan
Yeah, I suspect that different presidents have at this stage in the game have different levels of what they are allowed to know, perhaps. I spoke to one man who was very, very senior, he knows multiple US presidents, and he knows a lot about this topic, said to me among other things that, look, presidents come and go. People who deal with this topic for life, they have to deal with it, whether you’ve got a president who is chemically dependent, mentally unstable, or is intelligent and stable. You get all different guys coming through that office. And keep in mind, a president is someone who’s got to kiss the baby, shake the hands, he’s got to do the photo ops. How much time in a day is there, really, for any president truthfully to sit down and grapple with some of these issues? Basically, presidents, they can’t even be briefed on all the true black budget programs that we have. It’s not even a matter of keeping it from them for deniability. It’s just he doesn’t have enough time. There are hundreds of these programs.
Alan Steinfeld
But this is the big one.
Richard Dolan
This is, I agree.
Alan Steinfeld
But the other issue that we really haven’t talked about either is the average Joe on the street. First, does he care? How will this affect his life? To me and you it’s fascinating, but to most people, they do their job, they go home, they feed their family and if there’s extraterrestrials great, if there’s people in Japan it’s great, you know it’s like, the average American, they’re just…
Richard Dolan
Exactly. They’re busy watching the Yankee game or watching American Idol or doing their thing.
Alan Steinfeld
Exactly. So what do you do with those people and what do you say about that?
Richard Dolan
Well, what’s going to happen is that this is the vast majority of humanity. And I’m not even saying this to criticize people. This is just, look, people have to go through their lives and you’ve got to have a job, and if you’re going to have a job where you work 50 hours a week and it’s kind of boring, well it’s going to turn you into a certain kind of person too. So I’m not really faulting anyone for being the way that they are. But what will happen, I think this is inevitable, is that when this comes out, somehow, and again I don’t know how it will come out, it’s going to shock a lot of people. It’s really going to jar them. And some people may say, ‘Yeah big deal, I knew it all along.’ But excuse me, if and when we get to a point where not only is the reality let out but we actually start learning a little bit about these other beings. And that’s a whole other issue we really ought to get into. It’s going to make people realize that their own level of consciousness has probably been really, really low for a long time. And I think that this could be the event that will actually jar people.
Alan Steinfeld
Well I do think it is the most important event in human history. This event, of saying hey we really aren’t alone. This is a turning point for our global civilization. And it may take people a couple of hundred years to actually realize what that means to them, just like it took people realizing Copernicus’s theory what that meant to them and changing their worldview. And it does. And we are in the midst, and this are other people, of disclosure actually, people like you coming forth and the secrets that you’ve been able to find just by being an average citizen. I think disclosure seems to be an organic type of movement somehow.
Richard Dolan
Well, yeah maybe that’s a very good way to look at it. You definitely, there’s been a sea change in public opinion on this topic over the last say 30 years. The history that I just finished writing, this is volume two of UFOs and the National Security State, really I covered the 1970s and 1980s, up to 91. And one thing I noticed in that history was the birth of the internet, really in the late 1980s. And what that did is it didn’t just cause ufology, the study of UFOs, to kind of blow up, because it did. But it prompted major, major changes in our culture. And one of these things I think has been a widespread acceptance by the general public to the reality that there’s probably UFOs, they’re probably real. Now that doesn’t mean that people really care a lot and they don’t give a lot of thought to it. But at least my own experience when I talk with people, especially younger people, to them it’s like yeah, big deal, tell me something that I don’t know. I get the feeling that this is becoming a much wider spread belief system. And so that’s also an organic process.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, and I think when it does become widespread and sort of a given, that’s when I think we will have assimilated the idea and say okay, bring them on or something like that. The other aspect of that, that I’m sort of following on my website like I said before, is this evolution of consciousness where we are gaining more awareness. And this is just my theory and feeling, is that the vibration of the Earth and the collective humanity is somehow reaching a point of singularity or a sense of oneness. And ideas about the field, Lynne McTaggart’s book, and Rupert Sheldrake’s book that we share a common field of energy or thought unites us is getting more substantial. And I think the oneness of our culture through the internet will create a singularity within the minds that will welcome others. As a natural part of cosmic evolution. Just like when I interviewed the scientist Bruce Lipton. Do you know Bruce Lipton’s work?
Richard Dolan
I don’t.
Alan Steinfeld
Well he says evolution is not a haphazard thing like Darwin says, but it’s a fractal pattern. It goes from the one to the many to the one to the many. So single cells hook up with other single cells to form a multicellular organism that becomes another singularity that hooks up with other singularities to form communities, and those communities hook up to form let’s say cultural city-states. But as we come to a singularity of humanity, the next step in this cosmic evolution is to hook up with other onenesses, other singularities of planets, of planetary thought. This is sort of seen to me laid out in a very natural, evolving place of nature, bringing these cosmic cultures together. Is that too way out, does that make sense to you?
Richard Dolan
Well I think that’s a really compelling idea. And I certainly would agree, at least on the face of it, that there must be other civilizations or societies that are there that are at a very, very advanced, in a place where we want to be where they’re at. And so I think that yes we want to find such groups. But I guess until I actually see that directly, I’m going to I’m still working on certain assumptions. The assumptions that other lifeforms are guided by a principle, which is the principle of survival.
Alan Steinfeld
But that’s an old paradigm though I think. What about cooperation as opposed to competition, that idea?
Richard Dolan
Well, cooperation and competition are both part of the history of life. But competition has always been a very big part of life on planet Earth. And so all I’m saying is that I think it’d be very premature for us to discard that and to assume that the lifeforms that we may encounter that they’re not just necessarily looking out for themselves. I think it’s very likely that they’re interested in Earth for a couple of reasons, one of which is that Earth just might be a pretty great place for them. We’ve got a lot of things here, we’ve got water, we’ve got all kinds of genetic diversity, we have humanity which might be of interest to them not necessarily in an altruistic way. So what I’m just saying is that if you and I were both on a UFO post-disclosure policy committee, okay, I would be saying that before we throw ourselves into an alliance for example or with any of these other groups that we take a lot of time to get to know who exactly we are dealing with. And take as much time as we need to until we are satisfied that this is a good idea. I don’t see anything wrong with that. I think that what we’re probably about to jump into is a very wild universe of a lot of different types of entities, some of which may be very dark as well as others that may be very light.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. I think though, I mean separate and also connected that we as a planet are becoming more compassionate. Maybe because of the… Do you feel that to be true with each other?
Richard Dolan
Well I feel that there are many people on this planet who are very aware and very compassionate and I meet many others who are absolutely are not. So in terms of percentages it’s hard for me.
Alan Steinfeld
Well do you think there’s been a change though since the internet or since our times somehow, or not?
Richard Dolan
Well, look the internet’s filled with a lot of people who are engaging in nothing but flame wars and anonymous attacks of other people, so you know there are good people and there are bad people. There were absolutely wonderful, angelic people who lived a century ago, five centuries ago, and there are wonderful people who are living today. And there are also people who totally lack ethical orientations then as now.
Alan Steinfeld
Well maybe I’m living in my own little bubble but I do see that people seem to be more aware, more compassionate, more loving towards each other.
Richard Dolan
It could very well be that you’ve been wise in choosing your friendships and your social circles. But I mean all you have to do is look at the world around you and look at the political situation and the genocides that take place seemingly every year. And it’s obvious that we have a world that is filled with violence and rapacity. And so we obviously as a species have many lessons that we still need to learn in terms of playing nice with each other.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, and that is all obviously still happening. But do you see, because I see this spiritual awakening moving away from dogmatic religions to embracing this higher aspect of ourselves, that we are beings that exist beyond the body. Do you…
Richard Dolan
I think it depends on where you live. It depends on where you live, man. And look, I think this change will come but it’s not just going to happen to people on their own. It’s going to happen to generations I think. Most people, in my experience, dealing with them, I deal with the world of business on a regular basis. I live in Rochester NY. I deal with a lot of white collar, blue collar people dealing with their careers. Very mundane stuff, and I see a lot of mundane people, Alan. People in my view, don’t really change. Once they get to 30, 35, most people are done. They spend the rest of their lives filling in the blanks of what they think they already know. It’s really only generations, new generations of people that force change on the world. And so I do have a great deal of, I mean look there are exceptions obviously. And it’s certainly possible for any person to awaken themselves at any age. But in general, the pattern is very much…
Alan Steinfeld
I agree with you but I’m trying to change that. I’m trying to make a dent and perhaps awakening people.
Richard Dolan
And as am I. I spend in my daily life when I meet people, especially I get people one-on-one, I always try to take advantage of an opportunity to wake someone up to something that they may not have thought about before. So I think in our way we’re doing something that’s very useful and important. But in terms of change, I’m not seeing it, I’m not seeing a mass enlightenment happening say in 2012 or thereafter, unless it’s an ET event that just forces people, shocks the hell out of them. They’ll spend a week or two weeks pulling the hair out of their heads, but then they’ll calm down and realize, wow, I’ve wasted my whole life. And now let’s move on to the next level.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, and I think that it will happen that way. I mean did you see that story about that town in Jordan where their radio station was playing a joke and people freaked out when they heard the UFOs had landed? Did you read about that?
Richard Dolan
Oh I heard actually I didn’t dig into that. And I heard something about it but no I’m interested in hearing the details.
Alan Steinfeld
Well the details as I heard it was it was maybe it was an April fool’s joke but there was a radio station in Jordan that announced that the UFOs had landed and people better prepare and there was people listening that freaked out that they were going crazy. And of course, that’s a different culture. But…
Richard Dolan
You’re going to get that everywhere. You’ll get it everywhere. And that’s the other thing with disclosure is that when the President does it, one of the things, I mean, imagine that like you were the President, alright, and that it was your job to tell the world, okay, the world that there’s another life form here. You got to be really careful with how you spin that sucker because if you don’t do it right, I mean, you still, at least in the short term, you got to worry about the financial markets, you got to worry about the international political ramifications, people panicking, vigilantes, people not believing you, people believing this is a new world order plot. Okay, to…
Alan Steinfeld
So if you, if you were president then Richard, what would you say? Let’s say you’re up there, what, how would you approach it?
Richard Dolan
Very, very, very, very carefully. I would certainly… Here’s what I would want to do. Here’s what I would… I would inform the people that this is a reality, that there are other intelligences here on Earth, that there is no danger to us at this time, that we need to have an international group that’s going to study this problem and is going to be answerable to the people. We are going to find a way safely to implement some of these energy technologies that will promise to make life a lot easier for us, but we’re going to have to introduce them in a safe and responsible way under a kind of… under a global coordinated leadership that is not going to be dominated by corporate interest but that will be answerable to the people of the world. I mean, the real key is, it’s, I don’t see anything wrong or unnatural about a global government that is answerable to people. The problem that we’ve had is we’ve got a world that is dominated by international corporations that have taken over everything. So what is necessary is a vision of government that is actually answerable to people. There have been examples in American history where presidents have tried to do this with varying levels of success. And that’s really what we need on a global scale.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, that’s a bigger problem than UFOs, it sounds like, you know.
Richard Dolan
Well, absolutely. But see, the UFO issue is going to, once this all comes out, it’s going to affect every aspect of our world. It’s not something that we can just put into a separate little compartment. It’s going to affect everything.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. So but how, I mean, I guess that’s another huge topic. How do you dismantle corporations that do run the world and have their own armies and control governments and presidents and…
Richard Dolan
I haven’t figured that one out yet, Alan. But I will tell you that I am writing… I’m writing two books right now. I’m not just writing the third volume of my history. I am writing a book in collaboration with another author, a gentleman who in fact was the creator and producer of the television show from the 90s called Dark Skies. I’m sure some people listening may remember it. It was a very good show.
Alan Steinfeld
Was it a UFO show?
Richard Dolan
It was a UFO show. It was like an X-Files show. It ran for one full season in the late 90s. I would encourage you to go look it up on Wikipedia or look for it maybe on YouTube. It was a very good show. Anyway, his name is Bryce Zabel and he and I are very good friends now. We’ve been collaborating on a book which we are calling AD: After Disclosure. And the subtitle of it we have now is Life After Contact. And really what this book is, it’s our exploration of what the world will or may, let’s say, look like after all of this comes out. And that’s one reason that I’m so interested in talking about it. I’ve been actively writing this book, which I think will be out at the end of the summer, maybe early fall.
Alan Steinfeld
So yeah, give us a preview…
Richard Dolan
You want to hear about it?
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, give us a little like, you know, because we’re almost out of time, a little preview of what you think the world will look like after the event.
Richard Dolan
Well, I haven’t finished writing the book, so I haven’t finished deciding what I think it will fully look like. I go back and forth between optimism and real concern. I will say that. We are, we’re a world on a tightrope right now. We’re a civilization that is on a very, very high tightrope. And if we make it to the other side of that tightrope, we are going to be in for one amazing ride as a civilization. We just got to be careful we don’t fall. And so in other words, we’ve got some major challenges and major opportunities. We’ve talked about some of these already. The energy situation, I think, is one. Energy almost by itself. And you know, the fact is, we’re going to reach that transition even without the ET phenomenon intruding itself. Our own scientific developments at some point are going to get us to the point where we’re going to have free energy and we’re going to have to deal with these problems anyway. I just think that the ET reality is going to accelerate it.
Alan Steinfeld
It’s true. I’ve talked to Hal Puthoff, who has already put an economic program in place to, because he’s working on zero-point energy technologies, talk about how it will affect economies and all that once they discover this zero-point energy technology.
Richard Dolan
Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s a real…
Alan Steinfeld
The Department of Defense already has those things in place. So they know that, they’re aware of that. But let me just, let’s say we do accept the ETs, they’re here, everything’s okay, we get their technologies. Just let’s paint a, what’s the most optimistic future you can see after disclosure?
Richard Dolan
Optimistic? Humans with a lifespan of 300 or 500 years or more, living as almost like the way the gods would have lived in ancient times. Living in an absolutely truly utopian situation in which people are able to explore the world physically and spiritually in ways that we can’t even begin to imagine right now. I think those are, that would be the best-case scenario. That’s how amazing it could be. Worst-case scenario is that we end up in a global police state in which our lives are monitored 24/7, and in which we are tools for some force that we’ll never understand, but that uses us the way that farmers use cattle. And cattle certainly never understand their fate either until the very end. So it could be, it could be like that. It could be that we are, as one person told a researcher friend of mine, he said, humanity is like grasshoppers before the winter. So are we expendable in that way? Are we just utterly superfluous, ready to meet a different kind of fate? Or are we going to meet a fate in which we have this amazing utopian society? I think that really we’re at a point where all kinds of extremes are at least in theory, they’re possible. So we’re at the true crossroads of the history of our species. Certainly I’m thinking you and I might be able to agree on the fact that the human power structure of this planet is not looking out for the best interests of the people at large.
Alan Steinfeld
Of course. I do agree.
Richard Dolan
Right. So it’s very possible that the human power structure is able to put into place a control system that might just successfully squash any kind of disclosure via the implementation of a global police state via the microchip and so forth.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. But I do think that we are in for a species evolution, which is about an expansion of consciousness, a spiritual unfoldment where those forces may just change their mind or they may be ineffective. But there’s something else that’s coming besides just ET stuff. This is just my feeling, that will propel us into those spiritual realities, those greater awarenesses of who we are as beings beyond time and space. And I think the first scenario is the one I’m betting on, you know, of the utopian society. Because I think we are going to get help from unseen forces. That’s just my feeling. I have no proof, although I do have people who have told me that, based on their personal experiences. But I think there’s going to be a lot more to the picture than just, let’s say the ordinary ET. There’s more to us as humanity than we’ve been aware of. And I think that is actually the big disclosure.
Richard Dolan
I actually am very much in agreement with what you’re saying, Alan. And I’m really glad that there’s people like you making these points. There’s an element of our reality that is vastly beyond what we’ve been thinking that our life is.
Alan Steinfeld
I mean dreams. You dream at night, maybe you have an out of body experience, which actually is connected to some of the abduction experiences. But you know, people dream and their awareness goes someplace else and it’s not just an aspect of their brain physiology. It’s, I think it’s an awareness. I’ve interviewed lots of people who have astral projected and remote viewed and done travel out of their bodies. So to me I’m living in that reality where that’s possible.
Richard Dolan
Right. Right.
Alan Steinfeld
But what you’re doing is so important because you are giving people the hard-core facts that say, look guys, your world is not what you think it is and here’s the proof, and that is so important.
Richard Dolan
Well, thank you, Alan. I definitely appreciate the feedback and really it seems like we may be approaching this from slightly different points of view, but truthfully everything that you have said about your perspective on this I find it very compelling, it makes a lot of sense to me and it’s the kinds of, it’s not alien to me either. A lot of the research that I’ve been conducting is taking me exactly in those directions as well. My own study as the alien phenomenon or the UFO phenomenon is forcing me to accept the reality that what we’re dealing with is not just guys from outer space but dimensions. Dimensions are very important to this. Time manipulation is important to this. Spirituality is very important to this too. And I’m still at the process of trying to explore that and figure out exactly how it all fits together.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, Philip Imbrogno just wrote a book, Whitley Strieber touches upon this, even Jacques Vallee touched upon these dimensional qualities to the ET reality. And that’s where human beings could activate a consciousness which has been laying dormant that could comprehend these worlds. This is where we’re expanding into.
Richard Dolan
Well I think it’s, I think it’s something Majestic is interested in as well.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes. Yes. And but people like you are at least waking us up to saying, guess what, it wasn’t all what, you know, the evening news said it was, you know.
Richard Dolan
Right, exactly. Right. I mean there’s a whole number of steps that we have to walk through until we really get to where we’re going. And the best that any of us can do is to try to lead people through some of those steps.
Alan Steinfeld
Well and you are doing it. Thank you, Richard. I really appreciate your work.
Richard Dolan
Oh Alan, it was a pleasure.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, it was fun. I’m going to send you some articles I wrote recently on my website called The Aliens of 2009, where I analyzed the alien movies from the last year and talk about how they are a psychological preparation for at least us coming closer to a disclosure awareness.
Richard Dolan
Oh yeah, I would love to read it. I would love to read it.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, I’ll send you that. And your new book is coming out at some point?
Richard Dolan
Well I have, yeah, my latest book which is simply the second volume of my history has been out for a while. Anyone can go to the website keyholepublishing.com to learn about that. I have a book in addition to writing the third volume of my history which will be out I think that’ll be out in 2012, believe it or not. But I have another book that’s coming out before then, which is called A.D. After Disclosure. I’m co-authoring it with Bryce Zabel, the creator of the TV show Dark Skies. And we expect to have that out. Actually our publication date that we have given ourselves is going to be September 23rd of this year. That’s the date for any UFO geeks like myself, that’s the date of the Nathan Twining memo, in which he talked about the phenomenon as real, not visionary or fictitious. And it’s the day before the famous MJ-12 memo of Harry Truman. So we picked September 23rd, 2010 when this book will come out, A.D. After Disclosure.
Alan Steinfeld
And who’s publishing that book?
Richard Dolan
My company, Keyhole Publishing. Which I publish my books. I publish a book by my friend Richard Sauder. I’m republishing a book by the researchers Grant Cameron and Scott Crain, a book they wrote a number of years ago on MJ-12. And I’ve got a number of other authors who want me to publish their books. So I’m actually really looking to expand my own capabilities and Keyhole Publishing’s capabilities.
Alan Steinfeld
Well great. So that’s Richard Dolan at keyholepublishing.com. Thank you again, Richard.
Richard Dolan
Alan, it was a great pleasure. I’ll do this again anytime.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, yeah. And we will. We will.
Richard Dolan
Alright.
Alan Steinfeld
I’m Alan Steinfeld for New Realities. If you want to reach me, email me at newrealities@earthlink.net and check my website newrealities.com. I’m going to end with a song which is called The Night Before the Future where I think Duke Williams who sings it kind of goes into this disclosure idea.