New Realities recorded on September 9, 2026
Summary
Alan Steinfeld interviews astrophysicist Dr. Eric Davis about the recent pushes for UAP disclosure. They discuss the government’s hesitance to release information due to national security and corporate intellectual property concerns. Davis shares his insights from classified briefings, detailing the existence of non-human intelligence (NHI), crashed craft retrievals, and reverse-engineering efforts by private aerospace companies. He touches upon the physics of possible propulsion systems, such as traversable wormholes and quantum entanglement, and recounts his experiences with anomalous phenomena at Skinwalker Ranch.
Transcript
Eric Davis
We came to an agreement that what should be released easily and rapidly without any hold-up or speed bumps should be the fact that UAP are here. They’ve been here for thousands of years. They’ve been interacting with the human race for thousands of years, probably tens of thousands of years. And there is documented history based on Vallee and Aubeck’s book ‘Wonders in the Sky’, which documents that from the records in the Vatican Library and elsewhere. They’re here. And the government should be transparent about that. The government should be transparent that they’ve recovered those craft. They’ve recovered those craft worldwide, not just in the United States, it’s worldwide. And they should acknowledge even that we’ve been in contact with the NHIs, most likely through official government channels that have been kept probably far more secret than even the existence of the NHI crash recoveries during the previous 80 years. That should be acknowledged. That should be told to the people of America.
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome to the program. I’m Alan Steinfeld. I am very happy to have one of the inside insiders in this whole field of disclosure, UFOs, what’s happening with the government, what’s happening with private industry, what’s happening with the phenomena itself. No one that I’ve been aware of has more information, maybe more inside information than Dr. Eric Davis. Here’s Eric Davis describing his own qualifications in the movie The Age of Disclosure.
Eric Davis
I worked 28 years as an astrophysicist on highly classified UAP programs for the United States government and for the defense industry.
Alan Steinfeld
As an advanced theoretical physicist, he was a consultant to the secret government’s AATIP program. He also authored a paper called Traversable Wormholes, Stargates, and Negative Energy. He worked very closely with Jacques Vallee for a long time. He was also mentioned in the New York Times 2020 article on consulting congressional members about off-world vehicles not made on this Earth. In congressional hearings, Davis was the first person to identify different types of aliens that the government has come face-to-face with. While still maintaining his NDA, he’s one of the few insiders unafraid to come forward and speak his mind. Thank you for being here today, Eric. The first thing I want to ask you is about, because you’re under many NDAs I assume, what do you think of what’s just come out that there’s going to be a lifting of the NDAs of people like you by the president and other commissions?
Eric Davis
You have the counterintelligence gatekeepers. Their job is to protect those government secrets. In their role, they don’t want these secrets exposed because that’s not their philosophy. Their philosophy is not disclosure. Disclosure is a social thing. It’s a cultural thing that’s going on. It is not a principle of counterintelligence acting to protect national security secrets. They don’t have that frame of mind because counterintelligence guys are actually law enforcement. Even though the word intelligence is in that name, they are not part of the intelligence community. They are part of the law enforcement community. They’re thinking in terms of law enforcement actions to protect those secrets. The last thing they’re going to do is allow some assistants to the president who aren’t elected or nominated and confirmed by the Senate to push on them to open up these secrets. There’s going to have to be a lot more work done. I think the president can do the NDAs. You’re going to get resistance from the counterintelligence gatekeepers in the government, but more importantly, the biggest resistance is coming from the companies. They don’t want their proprietary information that they’ve developed over the decades since getting access to these crash retrieval programs to become public information. What should be released easily and rapidly without any hold up or speed bumps should be the fact that UAP are here. They’ve been here for thousands of years. They’ve been interacting with the human race for thousands of years, probably tens of thousands of years. And there is documented history based on Vallee and Aubeck’s book ‘Wonders in the Sky’, which documents that from the records in the Vatican Library and elsewhere. That kind of thing should come out. The American public should be confronted with the truth that there is an existence of a non-human intelligence in control of a very exotic, very advanced type of trans-medium craft technology, space, atmosphere, and sea. They’re here. And the government should be transparent about that. The government should be transparent that they’ve recovered these craft. They’ve recovered those craft worldwide, not just in the United States. It’s worldwide. They should acknowledge that. They should acknowledge even that we’ve been in contact with the NHIs, most likely through official government channels that have been kept probably far more secret than even the existence of the NHI crash recoveries or UAP craft recoveries during the previous 80 years. That should be acknowledged. That should be told to the world, to the people of America. When it comes to talking about any derivative information from the recovered craft that, although I’m still being told that it’s not yet fully understood, that type of technical information like the materials that those craft are constructed from, the possible control systems they use, how they’re propelled, any weapons that they might possess, not that they don’t, because we have a history of recorded investigations that they do. That kind of information should not be declassified and released into the public domain because that’s going to tip off our foreign adversaries and when they’re tipped off that we’re in possession of stuff that could turn into a game-changing weapon for us potentially in the future, then they’re going to throw all the money they can muster at conducting espionage against those companies and against those personnel working for those companies to get access to that knowledge, to steal it. China is very good at stealing American inventions, innovations, and practice, and technologies, and methodologies, and everything. You don’t want China coming after us for that. They can do it through the computer system as well as some amount of them that are infiltrated spies. That’s my take on it so far.
Alan Steinfeld
I love it. Because you’re saying what a lot of people want to hear. That these things should be released. There’s no reason why. Why do you think it has not? What’s the big deal about aliens? We’re not giving away their secrets. What do you think people, the insiders, are afraid of?
Eric Davis
The insiders I would say are actually at the government level. I’m not going to talk about the corporate insiders. Those guys are afraid of giving up what technical information they’ve gleaned from recovered UAP craft. That’s obvious. That’s a technical question. As far as the government insiders, they’re not willing to admit that we don’t have any weaponry or technology to go up against UAP craft when they come and do surveillance or when they’re coming into some form of contact or flying into the areas of US military equities. That’s a real problem. We had that problem last winter with the drones in New Jersey. Can we distinguish them between real UAP or were they man-made drones of foreign origin or man-made drones of hobbyist origin, domestic hobbyist origin? In fact, at least one of them was an admitted military contractor, a civilian contractor who developed a drone for the US military. And they were flight testing it in New Jersey.
Alan Steinfeld
Since 1967, Malmstrom, Robert Salas, he came forward, this interference. So that’s not a secret that they’ve been observing some of our military.
Eric Davis
That’s right. It’s not a secret to us, but the government doesn’t want to acknowledge it. And that’s because they’re afraid that we the taxpayers are going to look at them with an eye open on a 1.5 trillion dollar fiscal year 27 defense department budget proposal. If we’re going to spend that kind of money on the Department of Defense, they don’t want to look like clowns when they come out and say, well, these non-human alien craft, NHI craft, are coming into our airspace, our military airspace, our nuclear airspace, we can’t do anything about it. They don’t want to admit that. Because that’s a pride thing. That’s a pride thing and it’s also political, it rises to the level of politically hot.
Alan Steinfeld
Well that’s true. Why are we spending trillions of dollars on defense if we’re defenseless against something? I agree.
Eric Davis
Exactly, and we are. We are defenseless against it. You know the history going back to the first Project Blue Book investigation of the northern tier SAC sites that The Age of Disclosure documentary talked about. There was a second wave of that. That was the first wave that Blue Book did investigate. And then the second wave was in 1975 thereabouts in Montana and adjacent states that had Minuteman ICBM silos. That was called the northern tier SAC sites, Strategic Air Command, strategic missile launch sites. They even affected the Soviets at the time too. They were turning off our ICBM missiles and their warheads, but they were at the same time over in the Soviet Union turning on theirs. Here they can tinker with our nuclear weapons and we can’t do anything about it. We don’t have any form of shielding. The nuclear blast doors on top of a silo could not protect those missiles in the United States or the Soviet Union. Those UAP did what they did regardless of the blast doors. Regardless of the fact that they’re in a launch silo tube buried under the ground surface with the blast doors on top of them. Those UAP had no trouble turning on dozens of missiles over there and turning off dozens of missiles over here. Then they have shot down an Air Force interceptor. I think that was one in the 50s, if I’m not mistaken. You might remember that detail better than I do. It’s not that they shot it down, it’s that the pilot chased it all the way up until it was beyond the operating altitude of the aircraft and his life support system. He died, he probably died from suffocation or something and didn’t recover in the plane crash. But the UAP craft have shot around a thousand innocent civilians at Colares Island in the late 70s down in Brazil. Jacques Vallee in Confrontations writes a lot about UAP craft that have used beam weapons to shoot other people. Just maybe an individual and a child in one case down in a South American country and elsewhere. There has been harm done to UAP witnesses in close encounter cases. And it’s not been very positive. They demonstrate the ability to defeat military technologies. Sure, if they show up on one type of radar, or maybe you see them on a forward-looking infrared radar camera, the weapons lock radar won’t work. That has been noted even at the Nimitz encounter. That they could get even the Aegis system, that’s a weapon, they didn’t get those UAP, that Tic Tac, but they could not shoot it down. They were unable to shoot it down.
Alan Steinfeld
Let’s get back to the NDA because you said a lot of things about some people able to come forward. How about you personally? If this goes through, will you be able to come forward and share what you know, or some of it, not national security stuff?
Eric Davis
I’ve already shared my information in classified settings with the Senate Armed Services Committee staff and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence staff. The latter one I briefed two separate staffs. The first time was October of 2019 and the second time was in June of 2021. The Senate Armed Services Committee I briefed in a Pentagon SCIF under the sponsorship of the former director of the UAP Task Force, Jay Stratton, and his deputy. In both of the first SASC and SSCI staff briefings, events that took place in the same week of October 2019, Kirk McConnell was a part of that. In the SSCI, it was not only Kirk McConnell but Chris Mellon who joined me. Then in the second SSCI meeting two years later, that was at a private company’s SCIF in Huntsville, Alabama, where I was working for the Aerospace Corporation at the time. I briefed them. And I briefed AARO in January of 2023 and I briefed Representative Anna Paulina Luna’s UAP task force on May 15th of last year.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. That was public in a way.
Eric Davis
No, that was a classified briefing on the 15th of May last year. You’re thinking of the May 1st public question and answer thing that took place in the House Oversight hearing room on May 1st of last year.
Alan Steinfeld
But you talked about different alien races, four among many.
Alan Steinfeld
Here’s Eric Davis at that House Oversight Committee talking to Representative Burlison about the different types of alien species.
Eric Burlison
Any comments on whatever species have been piloting these crafts? Are they large? Are there multiple species? What is their size and how many are usually on a craft?
Eric Davis
There are typically multiple species, people generally look at the grays and the Nordics. People have talked about reptilians and insectoids, it’s not that they’re reptilian or insectoid, it’s that they resemble a reptilian or insect type humanoid. Because they have a head and four limbs and a torso.
Eric Burlison
Large, small?
Eric Davis
Human size, human scale. The grays I’m familiar with from investigating the crash at Corona, those grays, those are four foot tall. The Nordics are typically human size. I think they’re five, six feet tall. And same with the people who mislabel reptilian and insectoids, they’re roughly that height too. I haven’t heard anything about anything seven or eight feet tall.
Eric Davis
So what I also provided to committee members was, and it goes through Representative Burlison, was my sensitive AASAP and NIDS memos and reports. I have my copies of them which were proprietary information within the company I worked for at the time, because we generated that as part of our subcontract work to Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies, which were the prime contractor on the AASAP program. That company was EarthTech International Incorporated here in Austin, so I had worked for 15 years as Hal Puthoff’s chief scientist and senior research physicist.
Alan Steinfeld
You talked about the races and you seemed very convinced that we do have the craft.
Eric Davis
Well I know on a classified basis, like Dave Grusch does, only Dave Grusch has more security clearances in that regard than I do. But I not only was briefed by him, but I was briefed directly by two separate industry crash retrieval contractors. One of them at NIDS in the 1998 period, and the other one was another company when I was working for Hal Puthoff during the AASAP. That was an official AASAP activity that I was responsible for. Not just me, but Hal Puthoff and Bob Bigelow and Colm Kelleher who were briefed at that time too. So that group of us interfaced with the senior leader of one of the crash retrieval companies, and then I interfaced with an executive who was in charge of security at another aerospace company, which no longer exists because it got absorbed by another aerospace company after the turn of the 21st century.
Alan Steinfeld
Can you tell us, if it doesn’t divulge anything you’re not supposed to, how far these crash retrieval private industry companies have gotten? How much have they actually duplicated the crash technology? Is there a secret space program?
Eric Davis
Well, as of 2017, I think was the last, maybe early 2018 at the latest, was the last time I met with that senior aerospace company leader. He insisted even then, when we talked about your question, because I was gauging him as to where are they now. His understanding was no success was had. There were modest, very incremental success in being able to understand the materials that those craft are constructed from, to be able to fabricate a UAP craft. But there was no understanding as to how they were manufactured. How the fabrication came about, it was too far advanced. Lacatski talked about being able to be allowed inside of a craft once the program scientists and engineers figured out how to open it up. He said they did not see anything recognizable in the way of a power source or a propulsion system. And that aerospace senior leader pretty much said the same thing to me. He said that they didn’t seem to have any recognizable propulsion and power technology on these craft or inside these craft. And it’s remarkable. It is absolutely remarkable.
Alan Steinfeld
Why did what’s his name, the head of Lockheed years ago say we have the power to take ET home? Was that just…
Eric Davis
Oh, that was Ben Rich. That was, I read about him and I read about his psychology. That was hubris. That was just him, keep in mind he is not a physicist. He is an aircraft engineer. He’s reading popular science, popular mechanics, Scientific American, Science News. All these popular science sources. And remember, back then they didn’t have an internet. They did, but that was restricted to the scientific community. Anyway, he’s reading this stuff in these popular science magazines. He’s learning about quantum field theory, he’s learning about general relativity. He’s hearing for the first time the news about the theoretical discovery of traversable wormholes by Kip Thorne at Caltech University and his grad students as collaborators and postdoc students. Then later, I don’t remember what year Ben Rich died, I just don’t remember, but it’s possible if he lived, I think he did die before Miguel Alcubierre published the warp drive paper. I believe that’s correct. If he did, he didn’t ever see the news about the warp drive paper. There was plenty of news about traversable wormholes going as far back as ’88 when he was still alive, he was retired. He’s just piecing these pieces of information together and he made that statement at that UCLA engineering alumni meeting that one of my older generation colleagues had attended. He actually heard that. He actually heard Ben Rich say that. I believe he said that. Ironically, Ben Rich’s assistant denied that Ben Rich ever said that, but there is a whole audience full of engineering alumni who heard Ben Rich say those words. We have the technology to send ET home. Well, that’s off of Ben Rich’s head. He doesn’t realize that this is just theoretical and he doesn’t understand, this is my expertise by the way, my professional expertise. He doesn’t understand that we don’t know how to engineer the Einstein solution to create warp drives and traversable wormholes. We just can’t engineer that. The NHIs figured it out, but we don’t know if they’re using Einstein’s general theory of relativity or if they took a shortcut to a different approach to manipulating spacetime. Maybe they figured out something through other dimensions that we haven’t discovered yet. We haven’t discovered any other extra space dimensions as large as the three we live in. And then there’s the fourth spatial dimension we call time. When you multiply time, which is measured in units of seconds, by the speed of light, which is meters per second, you will convert time into a unit of distance in the spacetime unified spacetime model of spacetime geometry that Einstein’s teacher Minkowski invented, and Einstein used for special relativity theory and then later used it again for general relativity theory.
Alan Steinfeld
Some people say there’s experiences that said there’s a, I don’t want you to go too metaphysical, but there’s a mind melding with the ship. There’s some kind of intelligence that might be too out there for a scientist, but…
Eric Davis
You mean telepathic?
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, basically controlling the ship with one’s mind. Is that…
Eric Davis
Yeah, we had evidence of that from those back in the Roswell era days who were still alive up through the 90s, early 2000s, who talked about that on a private basis. They were inside the ship and they described no control systems. That’s what the big aerospace company that I interfaced with during the AASAP said the same thing. They have no levers, no gauges, no dials, no push buttons, no toggle switch. It looked like maybe a hand impression with three fingers or four fingers or something of that nature into a panel and that was it. But they believe that was really telepathic. Just the extreme spectral end of remote viewing. Their minds are so developed they telepathically control the craft, which means their craft have brainwave transducers that will receive a telepathic message, transduce that into an electronic response to control the craft. So far, it’s been telepathic, is all I’ve ever heard.
Alan Steinfeld
But you’re an astrophysicist. You’ve done papers on reverse wormhole engineering, Einstein-Rosen Bridge. What would your guess be, going away from the political disclosure thing, but as an astrophysicist, how do you think if you can hypothesize how they’re doing, how they’re going from wherever they’re coming from to here, what’s their means of propulsion?
Eric Davis
We don’t know yet. We don’t know. We can speculate. That’s all we can do because there’s no propulsion and power system inside the craft according to Lacatski and according to that senior aerospace company leader. We can only speculate. A colleague of mine who works for Brandon Fugal, I’m afraid to say his name, he probably wouldn’t care, but I didn’t ask his permission beforehand since that was a spontaneous question here. I don’t want to put him on the spot. He and I both independently speculate that they might be using quantum entanglement. Because it’s been theoretically proven, and I think rudimentary experiments have been done in the quantum optics labs that are involved with quantum entanglement and teleportation, they’ve been able to show that you can entangle and teleport energy. We both came up with the idea, well what if you’ve got a planet-wide power source 500 light years away and they can entangle the power that’s generated or produced by that power source with their craft across the galaxy? That’s how they can fly without the necessity of carrying a power source that requires some kind of fuel. These things don’t obviously have fuel tanks on or in them. It might be some sort of a very advanced quantum entanglement principle. The entanglement is not being a stored energy in the craft, in other words it’s actually producing the propulsion on the craft. It could be anything from a traversable wormhole stargate, which is what I designed for the AFRL in one of my Air Force AFRL studies, it could be that or it could be a different way of manipulating spacetime than general relativity envisions, because there are theoretical research groups now working to build spacetime from quantum entanglement. They found out that that’s the rudimentary structure of spacetime, not Einstein’s geometry. The geometry is not a physical property of space, that’s a geometrical picture by which he could describe the curvature of spacetime and the forces of gravity in general relativity. Gravity is not a fundamental force. It emerges from spacetime curvature. He needed a canvas, he’s like an artist. He’s painting on the canvas a theory of curved spacetime which yields the gravity and accelerations and black holes and wormholes, warp drives, collapsed stars like neutron stars and black holes, and warp drives and wormholes and time machines and gravitational waves and all this stuff. We already know from quantum theory’s exploration into quantum theory, quantum entanglement and teleportation, that it turns out the actual fundamental structure of spacetime is really quantum entanglement of matter. It might be that because their mathematical work is showing that spacetime comes from the entanglement of particles produced at the Big Bang, then spacetime unfolds from that as it expands, and we don’t have to get into all the details in this short hour, but it might be that this entangling of energy might be responsible for manipulating quantum entanglement structure of the spacetime around the craft. If that’s what propels it, does it propel through extra space dimensions? We don’t know. We’ve never discovered them astronomically or in particle accelerators, but it doesn’t mean they’re not there. It just means we haven’t used the right approach to discover them.
Alan Steinfeld
Hal said in an interview I did with him years ago that maybe, he was hypothesizing, they moved the space-time in front of the craft and then that propels them into like a vacuum.
Eric Davis
So he’s talking about the warp drive. You’re collapsing space in front and expanding space behind, but that’s not actually the real warp drive picture. Natario, I don’t remember his first name, is the one that looked at Alcubierre’s warp drive and generalized it mathematically and proved that that’s not the best description. That’s one. The best description is that of a ship that slips through spacetime. You don’t worry about compression of space, the distance of space ahead of you, and expansion of space and distances behind you to move between stars. Instead, you’re sliding, you’re sliding through spacetime. The spacetime itself is sliding you through, and you can go faster than light because there’s no speed limit on spacetime like there is on matter and information. That’s what Hal was really talking about.
Alan Steinfeld
Is that sort of what he was relating to in the Age of Disclosure, he talked about the bubble of spacetime around it?
Eric Davis
Exactly, yes.
Eric Davis
You could create a bubble, a warp bubble around a spacecraft that would have a different property of spacetime inside the bubble than on the outside of the bubble.
Hal Puthoff
This energy field would completely isolate the craft from the environment. You might ask then, how does the craft actually move forward within its bubble?
Eric Davis
The craft inside the bubble has a way of altering the bubble’s properties in order to change its direction of motion.
Hal Puthoff
It’d be like riding spacetime in the same way that a surfer would ride a wave in the ocean. We observe hypersonic velocity and instantaneous acceleration, and the reason is that time is moving differently for people inside the bubble versus people outside the bubble. Whoever’s inside the craft would feel like they’re just cruising along. They wouldn’t be feeling the effects of what looks like speeds and accelerations that would turn a human being into pudding. This one breakthrough can be the key to interstellar travel.
Eric Davis
The effect could be mimicked by modifying quantum entanglement around a craft. That means you’re going to the rudimentary structure of spacetime, which is the quantum entanglement of everything. You’re using some technique to manipulate it to mimic or resemble a warp bubble. Therefore you get around the engineering problems that the Einstein equations give you. They give you a number, a coupling constant between spacetime curvature and the source of matter that produces the faster than light spacetime or which has the faster than light effect in it. That number is 10 to the negative 44 one over Newtons. That’s the units. That means when you multiply it by the source of matter in order to convert that into inverse square meters of curvature, you’re going to need a source of matter that’s at least 10 to the 44th Joules per cubic meter. That’s energy per volume. But really if you’re going to be warping space to produce faster than light travel, you’re going to need astronomical amounts of what Einstein’s equations predict as negative energy. There might be a way of getting around that just by messing with quantum entanglement. Quantum entanglement doesn’t have that Einstein coupling coefficient between matter and spacetime curvature in it. That’s something that needs to be looked at. That is something unfortunately I’m not working in. EarthTech is on hibernation these days. The staff was laid off in 2018 because of a ceased funding that Hal experienced after 27 years from a single sole investor. I’ve had to work in the aerospace industry to earn a living, and none of that pays me to do the theory research I would need to do to be able to come up with a quantum entanglement version of a warp drive or a wormhole. Unfortunately I’m not, I just don’t have the time to do it. It’ll take me years to come up with a theory. Einstein had to work ten years to develop general relativity after he published special relativity. He worked on that full-time. He got to be paid to work on that full-time. For me 15 years at EarthTech, and I was trying to do the engineering side of that to see if we can get around it, we needed to explore the Einstein’s implications before I stumbled upon the quantum entanglement approach to quantizing gravity or coming up with an explanation for where spacetime and gravity comes from.
Alan Steinfeld
Well the engineering stuff is fascinating and if I had a more education in that field it would be more fascinating, but I get what you’re saying, you’re really at the cutting edge of developing these technologies. Let’s get back to the aliens for a second. Do you think there is an abduction program on the part of the gray race of beings coming in taking people’s genetics? Is that something you can confirm or deny?
Eric Davis
I don’t even know. I don’t even know what the crash retrieval programs know about that. I’ve only had a limited peek into it during the AASAP. Before and after, even before with my other source that I developed at NIDS in ’98, alien abductions did not come up. I have no insight into that at all. I can’t really answer that question. I would if I had an answer, but I don’t.
Alan Steinfeld
Why do you think these races are, obviously you said not just, you said four, but you said four among many, you said in a later comment.
Eric Davis
Yeah, that’s right, four among many. Those are the four prominent ones, the grays, the Nordics, and the ones that look like or remind people of insects, but they aren’t, and the ones that look like or remind people that they’re reptiles, but they aren’t. That’s the minimum four. If you want to see what the other NHIs look like, get Robert Emenegger’s book. His companion book to his 1974 TV documentary ‘UFOs: Past, Present, and Future‘. Look in there because he’s got wonderful schematics of the reported NHIs that came from Project Blue Book and the ones that didn’t come from Project Blue Book that were investigated by Jacques Vallee, Allen Hynek, and other qualified scientific investigators. Then you’ll see a taxonomy of the different configurations of UAP craft, but that’s in the number of pages he allotted to that or maybe the book publisher allotted to that, he didn’t get the full taxonomy, but he got a decent chunk of it. The same applies for the NHIs, for which a lot of different types of NHIs that have been seen. The one that was seen at Holloman is in there, and it’s the one that looks a little Egyptian because of the headgear and the big hooked nose. Might be maybe Greek Egyptian or something like that. That one is representative of a Nordic, and I think the grays are in there. There might be grays in there that I recall that might be wearing a silver suit. A lot of close encounter witnesses, either abductees or non-abductees, that have seen them, have seen these guys either in a suit with the head exposed or in a suit that covers the head. Like a total onesie. There have been other books published, but I haven’t bought them to read. There might be a wider taxonomy of the different types of NHIs that have been seen, but really those four that I talked about at the May 1st question-and-answer panel of last year with Representative Luna and Burchett and Burlison, that’s the primary, more recognizable ones.
Alan Steinfeld
And why do you think these NHIs are here visiting? I mean, if you could guess, maybe you don’t know exactly, but…
Eric Davis
I don’t know. That’s another secret I couldn’t penetrate through the classifications to get into to get the answer. I do know that a president volunteered that we had been in contact with NHIs, but that’s limited information. There’s another president who was briefed on it, for which we have a document, a facsimile of a briefing document that he received on this back in the late 70s. Of all the studies that I’ve read and the information I’ve gathered from the crash retrieval folks themselves, those folks are technical. Those are engineers and security officers and program managers. They don’t have the answer to that question because that’s not their tasking order. Their tasking order is, here’s a piece of a UAP craft. Only the top leadership knows it’s a UAP craft, the actual engineers that are touching it aren’t told where it comes from. They keep that compartmentalized from the actual technical talent that’s going to be accessing part of the craft. They’re not accessing the entire craft. They’re accessing pieces of the craft that have been removed from it or pieces that have been recovered from a crash. There are entire craft, and I’m sure without a doubt that those technicians that are given access to those entire craft automatically realize right off the bat that that’s non-human technology they’re going to be touching and working with, exploring. In any case those type of people don’t know. The contact information, the information that addresses the question ‘why are they here, what are their motives’, that is not known to the technical level people. That is above their pay grade. That is known by somebody else, somewhere else in the government. Maybe even in the crash retrieval industry, the companies that have those contracts. Maybe they know, I don’t know. The one senior corporate leader that I interfaced with, that Hal Puthoff interfaced with and Bigelow and Kelleher interfaced with during the AASAP, he did not reveal that he knew the answer to that question, and if he did know, he couldn’t reveal it to us. We all had TS/SCI clearances, he had TS, probably waived unacknowledged Special Access Program clearance, WUSAP. These are not standard Special Access Program clearances, they’re waived and unacknowledged. Unacknowledged means it’s like Area 51, it’s not officially acknowledged as a program. Waived means it doesn’t get reported to Congress for oversight. Instead, the Gang of Eight… well, not the entire Gang of Eight, in this case we already have knowledge and evidence that it’s probably at least two of the Gang of Eight. Just two of them who are briefed on the crash retrieval programs. Not all eight of them, just at least two of them. Or, well, no, I should, I’m saying that wrong. At the most two of them. At the most two of the eight are briefed. I would say that it’s hard to speculate on how much information is given to those two of the Gang of Eight. And whether who knows what about the contact, who knows what about their purpose here. Given the document that I saw from before Reagan’s first administration, it was clear to me that there was some information that was very helpful, but it wasn’t in-depth enough. But that’s because the document did not have its appendices attached to it. It came with a basic executive summary and references appendices, and the appendices did not come with it. That makes it very hard to determine. That’s a hard question to answer. As to what’s their relationship with the human race? Well, we might talk at CITD, I did talk about what we believe based on all the sum total of UAP encounter evidence is, is to understand their relationship with us. It isn’t who they are or where they’re coming from, because we don’t have that information. It’s their demonstrations here in front of us for thousands of years. Has given us enough evidence to speculate really strongly on their relationship to us. I talked about that in my 90-minute lecture at CITD 2026. Essentially, it follows the zoo hypothesis of the search for extraterrestrial institutes, science study for extraterrestrials. The zoo hypothesis is: they’re the zookeepers, we’re the zoo animals. That applies to extraterrestrials, not to UFOs, because SETI, the SETI scientific community, the astrobiology community, rejects UFOs outright. UAPs and NHI beings, outright. However, there is evidence that that hypothesis actually fits their relationship to us. I gave a long explication of that that we don’t have time to get into here.
Alan Steinfeld
What is, is there stuff you have seen that you just can’t say at this point at all, like really weird out-there stuff that would shock people, or…
Eric Davis
With respect to the crash retrieval or my personal experiences like at Skinwalker Ranch?
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, let’s talk about some of your personal experiences at Skinwalker because…
Eric Davis
Okay, the classified stuff I didn’t, I only saw classified human intelligence on a UAP recovery by a foreign country during the Cold War. I haven’t actually seen the data or evidence from my first source at NIDS in ’98 and my second source who we interfaced with during the AASAP. Okay. And then Jim Lacatski, he didn’t tell us anything. He wrote these three books, and he’s been on an oral history interview with George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell that was recently posted on YouTube a month or two ago, and he has talked about going into a craft and this and that and the other. Okay, the problem is Jim never revealed to Bigelow, Kelleher, Puthoff, or myself, or even Jacques Vallee, or John Schuessler, we were all on that team, that he had access to a craft, was invited to see it, was invited to touch it and go inside of it once it had been opened. And that was news to us. If there’s anything else he had been briefed on and given information about in the briefing, he has not revealed it to us. Probably because at the AASAP, we only had TS/SCI clearances, but guys like Jim Lacatski and guys like my AASAP era industry source, they have TS WUSAP, waived unacknowledged Special Access Program clearances. They can’t tell us much beyond TS/SCI. And that’s where the juicy stuff is, is in the WUSAP. All the questions you’re asking are in the WUSAP. I haven’t been able to see anything other than the foreign intelligence I was given access to for another three-letter agency as part of my job at AASAP. That was very spectacular, but that’s only photographs and technical reports. That’s it. No video, no film or anything.
Alan Steinfeld
You’ve never seen bodies either? Okay.
Eric Davis
Yes, there were bodies in that.
Alan Steinfeld
But did you actually see the physical…
Eric Davis
Craft and bodies.
Alan Steinfeld
You saw the physical bodies or just the photographs of the bodies?
Eric Davis
The photographs. No, just photographs. Just photographs and reports. Not the physical stuff. I didn’t see the physical because I wasn’t there. I wasn’t in the foreign country. I wasn’t there. They’re still hostile to the United States, so there’s no way they’re gonna let me over there. As far as Skinwalker Ranch, I was there five of the six years I worked for NIDS and Bob Bigelow. That was a pretty intense experience. Right off the bat, the staff and I, I was on a staff of three, Colm Kelleher, George Onet, and myself, and John Alexander was kind of like a quasi staff, quasi science advisory board member. He had spent one night at the ranch, he had been back for a few days with the remote viewer, etc. We were there for one to two week periods of time over a five year period. And from the get-go, we had crazy stuff happen that was intense.
Alan Steinfeld
Tell us what that crazy stuff…
Eric Davis
I’m not one to scare other people. Guys with PhDs, we’re stoic, you know. We don’t scare easily. We’ve been through the funhouses at the state fairs and you know, the haunted houses and the elaborate ones. So we don’t scare easy. It’s just perturbing, it’s disturbing.
Alan Steinfeld
What exactly can you tell us what it was that was disturbing and perturbing?
Eric Davis
What was done out there on the ranch, like for example we had multiple surveillance cameras on the ranch. These cameras were not wireless. It wasn’t modern 21st century technology. This is back in the 90s, late 90s. So we ran heavy telephone utility style cables, very thick, like garden hose width or twice that big, thick. We had cables that lay on the ground and then went up the telephone poles to connect to these surveillance cameras. They all ran to a central trailer, the command center trailer. We have time-lapse VHS recorders connected up to those cameras. What we’re doing is we’re looking for phenomenon. So we have to collect those tapes, take them back to Vegas, and run them through our VHS player and fast-forward them and then whenever something unusual pops up, we rewind it and it goes normal speed. But the idea is we would spend, I mean these are 72 hours on a single VHS. We would spend all day long watching a single VHS, just one of us. We would take turns doing that until we exhausted all the VHS tapes we collected over a period of a month or a couple weeks. So, here we come up with a surveillance camera going dead on us. And the other two surveillance cameras are fine. We looked at the one that went dead and we noted the timestamp as to when it went dead, the date and timestamp. Then we looked at the VHS tape from the other cameras. We saw that there was nothing wrong. There was nothing there. It was unexplainable. We got Terry Sherman, who was the former owner of the ranch, to go over there and take a look and find out why that camera’s all of a sudden gone. He reported back to us and said, ‘Oh, somebody cut the cable on the telephone pole.’ High up. Not at human height, but higher up. The cable was cut as sheer, absolutely clean and perfectly horizontal in a horizontal plane. Yet, the other cameras, there’s one other camera that’s watching the other telephone poles of security cameras with the cables running down them, we don’t see anybody walking up, doing the vandalism, getting on a ladder to get up there and cutting it, and we don’t see a cow doing that. Odd, disturbing. Then we had the orbs, then we had agitated cattle. I had the dark shadow experience. All that was described in the book ‘The Hunt for the Skinwalker’ by Kelleher and Knapp in 2004. It’s longer than I have time to talk about on your segment here. But we had orbs, we did see craft that were not differentiable, but we could see that there was a structure inside of one orb that we had seen and another orb that we saw at a further distance. One flew over the ranch and went away, nothing else happened, not recorded because we were out without recording equipment. The other one was visible to us by eye from the trailer house we were in for a 30-minute period. But it was three quarters of a mile away and nobody wanted to go out there and chase it down in the dark. This is our first visit there, so we had no equipment. We had no appropriate clothing to wear out there, because this is really rough and rugged and you could walk into a foot of muck without seeing it, you don’t have flashlights, we don’t have field meters, none of that. That’s when this stuff transpired. Then we had that little newborn calf that was eviscerated on the ranch the following February, I think it was, or early March. There’s still a little bit of snow on the ground and the leaves still hadn’t regrown on the branches of the trees. This mother cow is just angry as shit and she’s staying a distance away from her calf. The calf is dismembered completely perfectly. It has an ear that’s sliced off. It’s completely gutted on the inside. There’s no blood, no body fluid anywhere. You just see the rib cage and the hide. I think an eye was removed. I don’t remember that detail perfectly, I really remember the ear though. This thing’s leg joints were removed from their sockets, and that’s hard to do. That’s very hard to do manually. We took this tissue evidence and sent it to a colleague of Kit Green. He was the founding chairman of the board, former CIA chief medical officer and forensic scientist and chief technology officer. He knows a CIA expert who’s an expert in homicide by sharp instruments. He took a look at our tissue samples and said, ‘Oh, this is clearly this is not what was removed because what was removed was gone. Whatever was removed from that animal was missing altogether.’ We took a chunk of that head where the ear lobe would be. It had been sliced, the rest of the ear was sliced off down to the face. He looked at that, he looked at the other tissue samples of the other parts that were dismembered. He said, ‘Oh, this is the clear sign of a machete.’ In the space of 30 minutes while Terry and Gwen Sherman are driving from their house where they see the calf is born. Calf is born, it’s standing up, and they’ve got to go to the other side of the ranch about three quarters of a mile away to do some work on a ranch fence or gate. Then they came back 30 minutes later and then there’s that calf. Completely dismembered with all gutted and everything, with no anything else but what was left behind, and the mother cow is just angry as shit standing many, many yards away and threatening, but not attacking anybody. That was a 30-minute period of time and John Alexander did a scenario role-playing on if it was a military special forces, they wouldn’t have had time to be able to do that and not be heard. The Shermans would have heard the helicopter. Yes, there’s quiet helicopters, but they’re not perfectly silent. They would have heard it, they would have seen it from their vantage point. They did not. A helicopter would have had to come in, drop a special forces team, carve up that calf and then take out, without the mother cow attacking them. That’s another issue.
Alan Steinfeld
Well there’s so much to this whole phenomenon. You’re an insider, a lot of it. What do you think the big picture is? I mean if you could hypothesize about what you think is really going on with human interaction. Are they trying to upgrade our awareness, our technology? Are they hiding forever from us? I mean, what’s your educated…
Eric Davis
I don’t know. That goes to your earlier question. We can’t speculate. That’s a motive. We do know, we have enough information to form a hypothesis of their relationship with us. I think they’re the zookeepers, we’re the zoo animals. They’re here checking up on us, and they know we have really stupendous weaponry, which could devastate the planet if it’s all used at once on both China, the United States, Israel, the other nuclear powers in Europe, and the United States. Oh yeah, this planet would be fucked up. They obviously are very well aware of that. They go to where our nuclear weapons are stored, where they are deployed, where they are manufactured, and they infiltrate the airspace of those equities and so forth with impunity. It’s just hard to say whether they’re caretakers looking out for us or not. They haven’t caused a war. What they did with the Soviet and American ICBM sites in ’68ish, ’67, and ’75, that did not go to a nuclear war. That did not happen, but that was a demonstration to us of their power. They’ve demonstrated their power to us, and they’ve demonstrated in other ways too. It’s just we’re not sure why. I don’t know how to answer that question.
Alan Steinfeld
I understand. You have a statement with Jacques Vallee: ‘The release of information is driven strictly by the phenomenon itself.’
Eric Davis
Exactly.
Alan Steinfeld
And what does that mean? What does that mean, the phenomena is directing the action, our response to it? Can you explain what that means to you?
Eric Davis
I don’t know how to explain that. All I know is that the evidence appears that the phenomenon seems to be in control over the human forces on earth, our governments, our contractors, other governments. It seems to be some sort of control system. He’s always called it an intelligent control system. He correctly has done so because we observed that in action on the ranch, for the five of six years I was working for Bigelow. It is an intelligent control system. I’m guessing it doesn’t want the human race knowing what it is, where it comes from, and why it’s here. And what its agenda is. That’s the thing you’re asking, we don’t know the agenda. But obviously it does play a role in preventing, I think it’s gonna prevent disclosure. I gave Trump less than ten percent of a chance of success. I actually wrote less than one percent, and I thought, ‘Well maybe I better give him a little slack,’ and I thought a factor of ten more slack, taking it from less than one percent to less than ten percent, was more than fair and accurate. I think that’s because I’m thinking in the back of my mind that the NHIs are not going to really let him go the full monte on disclosure. They’re gonna pull the strings however they pull the strings to prevent Trump from going the full monte. Human forces inside that are going to work against it, and then you’re going to have the intelligent control system working on the outside that’s going to work against it.
Alan Steinfeld
Sounds pretty convoluted and crazy to some astrophysicists out there, but they’re not very learned in this area.
Eric Davis
They have no experience, they’ve never been anywhere. They’ve been in their laboratories and their classrooms and their university offices and that’s the totality of their experience. They need to pick up books that are published by the top UAP scientists, and I mean there are top scientists. Peter Sturrock, Jacques Vallee, myself, and the books by Kelleher, he’s a top scientist, and Lacatski is too, he’s a top engineer. Jay Stratton’s book is coming out in October, that’s another thing we need to pay attention to. There’s everybody else you know, James McDonald, from the older generation who have passed, John Schuessler who’s now passed.
Alan Steinfeld
I’m sorry to hear that, because he was so important in getting the experiencers’ ideas to MUFON and changing MUFON from nuts and bolts to experience. I’m part of it, he did.
Eric Davis
Yeah, yeah. There’s many names I can’t name because I can’t think of them all right now. You know what I’m talking about.
Alan Steinfeld
Is there anyone you feel that is in direct contact with the NHI, you talked about George W. Bush at Holloman and stuff, but is…
Eric Davis
No, no, no, George Herbert Walker Bush.
Alan Steinfeld
The senior, the older Bush. But is there anyone you feel is in direct contact with NIH and taking orders from them?
Eric Davis
It’s possible. I don’t know for a fact, but it’s possible. It could be somebody in the government level, maybe coordinating with a contractor or two that are doing that. I just don’t have evidence of it, but I don’t want to dismiss it. Because that could be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, by mistake.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, well what do you think happened…
Eric Davis
It’s very possible. Because there’s a long story behind things where there was government contractors, defense industry contractors who knew the UAP would arrive before they were observed.
Alan Steinfeld
Holloman, right? Holloman’s all about that. They were waiting for the…
Eric Davis
That was one, there was another one by the remote viewing program where they had an episode of that with Ingo Swann. Where the company that Ingo Swann was interacting with already knew in advance that a big UAP would appear over a lake in Alaska so they all got their team together, took Ingo with them and they hid in the forest so they could keep low profile and not be discovered by the UAP. They watched it arrive. They watched it suck water out of the lake. They watched it shoot a beam and kill a large elk on the edge of the lake. They watched it fly off. They knew that was going to happen before they got there. They also knew that Ingo was going to encounter an alien in human disguise, which the astrophysicists and regular physicists of other disciplines and mathematicians in the academic world are going to laugh at, but this is real, and it’s been proven, and it’s been published, and they need to learn to accept this type of data. It’s good that they question it, but they need to accept it. As long as they don’t, they’re not skeptics. They’re bullshit artists. So anyway, Ingo had an event, the contractors, senior representative and his security team of two, knew before Ingo got there that there was going to be an alien human disguise in that grocery store. They were testing remote viewing. They were testing Ingo’s, one was the premier remote viewer who co-founded that program with Hal Puthoff at SRI. They wanted to see if a remote viewer as good as Ingo is good enough to tell the difference between regular humans and something non-human in human disguise, something alien in human disguise. He passed the test. He actually psychically was able to see that. But they knew this beforehand. So there is somebody in the government and working with contractors, one or more contractors that already have some kind of contact going. I don’t have the clearances to, and I don’t have I need to be the Attorney General of the United States charged by President Trump to go knocking, busting doors down. Busting doors down, busting down government program offices at the three-letter agencies and the contractors’ companies without fear of retribution, lawsuit or anything. I need to bust the damn doors down. I need somebody like that if it’s not me to do that in order to get at this because this is stubbornly kept quiet, kept secret.
Alan Steinfeld
I’m glad you want to know, but sounds like the whole psionic thing that came out with Jacob Barber was happening back then, what do you think of the psionic assets?
Eric Davis
Well that’s not psionic, psionic is the name of a defense company. That’s their trademark name. Psychotronics is the official name. It’s psychotronics. Because that means technology that uses psychic abilities.
Alan Steinfeld
But Jacob Barber came out and talked to Ross Coulthart about the whole psionic assets that were employed by private industry to pull down craft or to see what’s on the craft. Is that…
Eric Davis
I hadn’t heard, I hadn’t seen that interview. I’ve seen people comment on it. I will give it to him that that’s true. That he’s speaking factually or truthfully. I don’t want to disagree with him because I don’t know otherwise. I will accept it. If that’s the case, then that means they learned their lessons from the Ingo Swann days and the Holloman days. They figured out how to psychotronically interact. Now that’s, if you remember, when Dave Grusch came out and said that they have an active program for trying to bring down UAPs, reverse engineering program, right. That caused a big shit storm. People started investigating. Well we did, I did an investigation. I talked with my contact in an allied foreign country, one of the Five Eyes countries, won’t say the program manager’s name, but he and that program manager had arranged in January and February of 2020 to fly me out there on company expense and give them two and a half days of my classified briefings and proprietary briefings on everything I talked to you about. It was from there that Dave Grusch, now Dave Grusch was the NRO liaison officer to Jay’s UAP task force at the Office of Naval Intelligence. That’s why Dave talked to his civilian boss in Colorado Springs to get me into briefing with them. So there’s that overlap between Dave Grusch, Jay Stratton, and myself and Aerospace Corporation in the middle of it. That’s how that came about. Dave used my briefings to, he had enough information for me to follow the yellow brick road to find the crash retrieval programs using his super user security clearance status.
Alan Steinfeld
They’re not hopeful that we will ever have full-on disclosure because of the legacy programs and the NHIs themselves.
Eric Davis
Like I said, pushback. It’ll be pushback. Also it’ll be the thing that another three-letter law enforcement agency is worried about, they want to set up a procedure where the surface-level information of ‘they exist, they’re here, they’ve been coming here for however long, they’ve been coming here and they have been interacting with the human race for that length of time’. That needs to be revealed. That, and the fact that they have high-technology craft, they use psychic powers, and there’s orbs involved, craft involved and all that, that’s got to be revealed. And the fact that they’ve had crafts that have crashed or landed that we have either successfully or unsuccessfully recovered worldwide, are in our possession, and so they have an advanced technology. That should be revealed. And then we have been in contact with them should be revealed. And we know why they’re here and here’s why. That should be revealed. But what we’ve learned or what little we’ve learned, which could be little, I don’t know if it’s advanced any further since my industry contact during the AASAP had been put on retirement in the early 2010s. If there’s been any improvement in reverse engineering that technology. But that part of it should be kept classified. Because of the potential for our adversaries to steal that, use it to leapfrog us, because we haven’t figured out how to develop an advanced weapon from it. The weapon doesn’t have to be destructive, it could be in the way of anti-gravity propulsion that carries a weapons platform. That kind of thing. Or maybe psychic communication technology. We can get rid of all of our jammable radio wave technology and replace it with psychic technology and communicate with our troops psychically. Our enemies have no way of intercepting it or jamming it.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, that would be incredible.
Eric Davis
So those kind of things, yeah, those kind of things have to be kept secret. There has to be a firewall between the surface-level stuff and the in-depth technical level stuff.
Alan Steinfeld
Any comments about the Wilson-Davis memos that have revealed a couple of years ago?
Eric Davis
I can’t comment and legally I’m allowed to say it’s a real document, it’s factual, it is accurate, and that’s all I can say about it.
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you for saying that piece. Eric, thanks, you’re such a wealth of inside information and I’d love to just do a program with you about wormhole technologies at some point. Would you be interested?
Eric Davis
Okay, we can do that.
Alan Steinfeld
Thanks for your time, are you on the scene? Are you doing a lot of podcasts? Are you… people you know?
Eric Davis
No, it’s just I promised you at CITD I’d do your podcast. So I’ve done a bunch of podcasts already, I have one more coming up in two weeks. I just don’t have time to do them on a weekly basis.
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you for your time today. I appreciate it.
Eric Davis
You’re welcome, I’m happy to be here and I enjoyed answering your questions. Thank you for having me on.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, there’s so much to this phenomenon. I think it’s the most interesting thing happening on planet Earth at this moment.
Eric Davis
Oh absolutely. This is better than the war in Iran and inflation and high gasoline prices.
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you so much, Eric. I’ll be in touch and appreciate your time and everything you’ve shared today.
Eric Davis
Okay, you’re welcome. I was happy to be here. Bye-bye.
